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Post new topic   Reply to topic    Reformed Theology Institute Forum Index » Total Depravity » Imago Dei before/after the Fall
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Tsukasa


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PostPosted: 08-25-2012 5:10 am
Post Number: 17632
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(another vaguely worded question by me, yay)

1) What does it mean to be made in the Image of God? Is it simply God's communicable attributes and by necessity a spirit? Or are there other elements to it?

2) Does any portion of this image remain after the Fall? Or stated another way, are "crimes against humanity" crimes against the image of God or crimes against those-who-were-originally-created-in the image of God?

3) What is the function of the spirit at Creation? At the Fall? During Regeneration/Sanctification? Or stated another way, how do we as humans exercise/use our spirits during these stages of ordo salutis?

Thanks for your help (and your patience).
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Nang


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PostPosted: 08-25-2012 8:44 am
Post Number: 17635
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Tsukasa wrote:
(another vaguely worded question by me, yay)

1) What does it mean to be made in the Image of God? Is it simply God's communicable attributes and by necessity a spirit? Or are there other elements to it?

2) Does any portion of this image remain after the Fall? Or stated another way, are "crimes against humanity" crimes against the image of God or crimes against those-who-were-originally-created-in the image of God?


It is my belief that man was made in the image of God as a conscious moral agent, and remains a responsible moral agent despite the fall.  

Quote:
3) What is the function of the spirit at Creation? At the Fall? During Regeneration/Sanctification? Or stated another way, how do we as humans exercise/use our spirits during these stages of ordo


The spirit of man has always been morally responsible and accountable to live according to the revealed will and word (commands) of God, but since the fall and corruption of the total human being, body and soul, the spirit of man has proven to be only inclined to do evil.

Only through regeneration by God's grace and the power of the Holy Spirit, is any man freed in his own spirit to love and serve righteousness and fulfill his created purpose.

Nang

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Nang


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PostPosted: 08-25-2012 11:09 am
Post Number: 17637
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Some good reading on this subject is found in "Calvin's Institutes" Book I, Chapter 15.

http://www.reformed.org/master/index.html?mainframe=/books/institutes/


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PostPosted: 08-25-2012 5:14 pm
Post Number: 17643
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Another useful read on the matter:



Click to download file
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PostPosted: 08-25-2012 5:19 pm
Post Number: 17644
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Tsukasa wrote:
(another vaguely worded question by me, yay)
What Systematic Theology books do you own?

Do you have Hodge or Berkhof?
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PilgrimPastor


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PostPosted: 08-25-2012 7:51 pm
Post Number: 17646
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One aspect of salvation is that salvation is the process of God restoring His image in His creation through the saving and subsequent reshaping of His creation in the image of His Son.  In fact, salvation understood this way opens deep understanding the relationship between creation ex-nihilo and sovereign grace / new birth / election / eternal security. God alone created out of nothing existentially-ontologically and then He created out of nothing morally.  We didn't exist and He created.  We were lost and He recreated.
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Tsukasa


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PostPosted: 08-25-2012 10:46 pm
Post Number: 17652
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@AMR I have Horton's "The Christian Faith", Institutes, and Hodge. But my reading comprehension (and memory) is terrible.

Once again, I find myself drawn back to the Westminster confession "After God had made all other creatures, He created man, male and female, with reasonable and immortal souls, endued with knowledge, righteousness, and true holiness, after His own image".

Nang mentioned the "reasonable" aspect in her posts.

It'll take me some time to get through the article Patrick attached. It is, roughly, what I was looking for. I need some time to understand what reason, immortality, knowledge, righteousness, and holiness are (for instance, I thought that Holiness was incommunicable when it is communicable).

But even in that sense, did we lose these 5 properties entirely in the Fall? I don't think so. If we did, we would be mere animals. So then, to what extent did we lose these properties and in what sense do we still retain them? Does man still retain dominion over the creatures of the Earth as he had at Creation? <--- For now, these are rhetorical questions.

@ PilgrimPastor If we are created anew, what is the resurrection? There is a distinction here between body and spirit (which is yet another aspect of this question). I'm not sure that our spirits are created ex-nihilo. And I don't know what you mean by creating out of nothing morally. But this is a secondary matter...
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PilgrimPastor


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PostPosted: 08-26-2012 5:53 am
Post Number: 17653
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Tsukasa wrote:
@ PilgrimPastor If we are created anew, what is the resurrection? There is a distinction here between body and spirit (which is yet another aspect of this question). I'm not sure that our spirits are created ex-nihilo. And I don't know what you mean by creating out of nothing morally. But this is a secondary matter...


By "morally" I am referring to His re-birthing us in Christ out of nothing in the sense of out of nothing to warrant our deserving such favor.
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Tsukasa


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PostPosted: 08-26-2012 1:30 pm
Post Number: 17659
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PilgrimPastor wrote:
Tsukasa wrote:
@ PilgrimPastor If we are created anew, what is the resurrection? There is a distinction here between body and spirit (which is yet another aspect of this question). I'm not sure that our spirits are created ex-nihilo. And I don't know what you mean by creating out of nothing morally. But this is a secondary matter...


By "morally" I am referring to His re-birthing us in Christ out of nothing in the sense of out of nothing to warrant our deserving such favor.


Ah, but if it is for His good pleasure, isn't that by definition morally driven?

Regarding my original post, sorry for this circuitous line of questioning. I am looking for a specific answer, but I just don't know how to ask it directly. My last thread started out asking about canonicity and ended up being about epistomology. And this post is starting out in Genesis, ending in ordo salutis, but really it's about Total Depravity (I think).

Still reading those links btw...
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PostPosted: 08-26-2012 11:11 pm
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Tsukasa wrote:
@AMR I have Horton's "The Christian Faith",
See Chapter 12
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PostPosted: 08-27-2012 7:27 am
Post Number: 17677
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So... I've tried to make sense of what I've been given. I've listed my understanding of the material in numbered bullet points (for easier correction Sad).
  1. The Imago Dei consists of knowledge, righteousness, and holiness. (Eph 4:24, Col 3:10)

    1. It does not consist of "reasonable and immortal souls"(WC IV) "which is man's constitutional make up in body and soul" (Stewart).
    2. It does consist of the communicable attributes of God (e.g. wisdom, power, love, mercy) insofar as they are accidens of the three characteristics (knowledge, righteousness, and holiness).
    3. Consciousness, moral agency, and moral responsibility do not affect the Imago Dei, either positively or negatively.

  2. The Imago Dei is ethical rather than ontological
    1. It cannot be attributed to any faculty of man (body, soul, or spirit). Fallen man, though it has all 3 faculties, does not imply the Imago Dei.
    2. Nor does such a capacity imply the Imago Dei.
    3. The statement "Man, and man alone, is the very image of God" is false. Only pre-Fall Adam, Christ, and the regenerate are the very image of God.

  3. At the Fall, the Imago Dei was "not utterly effaced and destroyed in him, it was, however, so corrupted that any thing which remains is fearful deformity" (Institutes 1.15.4). (i.e. Total Depravity)
    1. Man cannot look within himself for God (Horton's overcoming estrangement)
    2. "Even fallen man is inescapably related to God" (Hoekama), not in semblance to the Imago Dei per se, but in breach of covenant (Horton).

  4. Dominion over the Earth is an accidens of being in the image of its ruler, i.e. the result of an ethical distinction rather than an ontological one.
    1. The Earth is under the dominion of the devil (for a time). Therefore those who are totally depraved are under the imago diaboli and have dominion under the devil's rule.
    2. The Kingdom of God is under the dominion of God at all times. The regenerate are under the Imago Dei and have dominion under God's rule.

Question 1:
(answered)

Question 2:
Fallen man has lost all sight of God's knowledge, righteousness, and holiness, so from his perspective injury to another person or group of persons is only a crime insofar as it deviates from his imago diaboli. i.e. different people would say it is or is not a crime. And furthermore, there can be no claim to universal morality since it has been abandoned, resulting in imago diaboli.

The regenerate see injury to another person or group of persons not as a crime against God (it does not hurt God's image or reputation in anyway), but as a crime against the self "imago"; even persecution is not a crime (sorry if this sounds heartless in light of the "disgusted beyond belief" thread, but does God not discipline the ones He loves and test them to see if they will keep His ways?). However, the regenerate can "see through a glass, darkly" (1 Cor 13:12) and at worst see its deviation from its original purpose and at best make corrections to its imago. In a weird way, the regenerate HAVE knowledge, HAVE righteousness, and HAVE holiness yet are NOT knowledgeable, NOT righteous, and NOT holy.

Question 3:
I have no clue... Is the spirit an ontological "thing"? I'm getting mixed messages here. The term "ethically/spiritually" implies that it is not. Yet I can attach adjectives to it such as "sinful spirit" "holy spirit" "unjust spirit". Is the spirit immortal also after the Fall? Is it sort of like "a perpetual idea"? I don't know where to begin here.

(followup question to question 3)
Is it true that animals have the capacity for reason, but not the capacity for morality?
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Tsukasa


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PostPosted: 05-14-2014 1:48 am
Post Number: 20751
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Tsukasa wrote:
2) Does any portion of this image remain after the Fall? Or stated another way, are "crimes against humanity" crimes against the image of God or crimes against those-who-were-originally-created-in the image of God?

I FOUND IT!!! (almost two years later yay!)

The answer to question 2 is:
"For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.  Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools  and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles." - Ro 1:21-23
(This is a direct parallel to WCF " endued with knowledge, righteousness, and true holiness, after His own image;")

and

"Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight; so you are right in your verdict and justified when you judge." - Psa 51:4
(Crimes against humanity are crimes against God.)
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