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St_Worm2


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PostPosted: 11-26-2016 8:46 pm
Post Number: 25779
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I've been discussing 2 Peter 3:9 with an EO. He, of course, insists that πᾶς [pas] in the second half of v9 refers to "all" w/o exception. I told him he was correct with the one exception that, in context (which includes the Book, the Chapter, the Passage, and even the Verse itself), πᾶς refers to all of the "elect" without exception (not all "people" w/o exception).

I also told him that the Lord was not patiently waiting for those He already knew were eternally reprobate to come to faith.

Is this the correct/best way to understand Peter's use of "all" here? Is it even possible to interpret v9's πᾶς [pas] as all "people" w/ exception considering the context in which it was written?

Thanks for your help with this!

Yours in Christ,
David

p.s. - for reference sake, here's the short passage that it's found in:

Quote:
8      But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9      The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for "all" to come to repentance. ~2 Peter 3

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Ask Mr. Religion


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PostPosted: 11-27-2016 8:00 am
Post Number: 25780
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God's longsuffering is for the purpose of saving the "beloved" elect to whom he is writing.

See the immediate context in 2 Peter 3:1. Peter says he is writing to those of 'you' who have 'pure minds'. And in 2 Peter 3:3-6 where the 'you with pure minds' is contrasted with 'they who are willingly ignorant scoffers'. And in 2 Peter 3:7 where the 'they' from 2 Peter 3:5 are described as 'ungodly men headed for perdition'. Thus, the us-ward that Paul refers to is the 'you who have pure minds' and not the 'they who are ungodly, ignorant scoffers headed for perdition'.
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PostPosted: 11-27-2016 9:06 am
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Ask Mr. Religion wrote:


See the immediate context in 2 Peter 3:1. Paul says he is writing to those of 'you' who have 'pure minds'.


Did you mean Peter?

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PostPosted: 11-27-2016 1:05 pm
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Snap!

Fixed that. Thanks.
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PostPosted: 11-27-2016 2:15 pm
Post Number: 25783
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de Rien as the French would say.  (My wife doesn't like that as it translates "for nothing" but I suppose it actually means "nothing to thank me for."

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St_Worm2


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PostPosted: 11-27-2016 2:57 pm
Post Number: 25784
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Ask Mr. Religion wrote:
God's longsuffering is for the purpose of saving the "beloved" elect to whom he is writing.

See the immediate context in 2 Peter 3:1. Peter says he is writing to those of 'you' who have 'pure minds'. And in 2 Peter 3:3-6 where the 'you with pure minds' is contrasted with 'they who are willingly ignorant scoffers'. And in 2 Peter 3:7 where the 'they' from 2 Peter 3:5 are described as 'ungodly men headed for perdition'. Thus, the us-ward that Paul refers to is the 'you who have pure minds' and not the 'they who are ungodly, ignorant scoffers headed for perdition'.


Thanks Patrick :)  I wanted to check because I am getting so much insane/intense pushback about my simple suggestion that a proper understanding of 2 Peter 3:9 can only be reached in context .. even if that understanding no longer supports the teaching of their presupposition.

In Christ,
David

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PostPosted: 11-28-2016 10:26 am
Post Number: 25785
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Would see the all to refer to all those who will be getting saved by Jesus...

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larry joseph pearson


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PostPosted: 11-28-2016 3:15 pm
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Think  "us ward " is the key to the "all." I have enjoyed all the input on this subject.

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PostPosted: 11-28-2016 5:27 pm
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Thanks everyone. My EO friend brought up 1 Timothy 2:4 and John 12:32, so I may be dropping back in again to talk about those two verse's use of "all" as well.

He also said that I'm guilty of "proof-texting" in Ephesians 2 (perhaps because I was blaming him for the same thing in 2 Peter 3), but that's a different subject (so I'll start another thread about that a little later).

--David

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PostPosted: 11-29-2016 8:31 am
Post Number: 25789
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St_Worm2 wrote:
Thanks everyone. My EO friend brought up 1 Timothy 2:4 and John 12:32, so I may be dropping back in again to talk about those two verse's use of "all" as well.

He also said that I'm guilty of "proof-texting" in Ephesians 2 (perhaps because I was blaming him for the same thing in 2 Peter 3), but that's a different subject (so I'll start another thread about that a little later).

--David


If we should take it as God Will is for All sinners to be saved, then He is not powerful enough to accomplish that feat...

God desires and will is that ALL whom He chose to get saved in Christ will come to faith in Him makes far more sense!

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larry joseph pearson


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PostPosted: 01-16-2017 11:02 pm
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I enjoyed all the posts on the subject. My assumption is that the person  in dialogue with St._Worm2 was taking an indefinite proposition and turning it into a universal. This is also the case of Hebrews 2:9. There we see the words  "tasting death for every man." What is denied is that every man always and necessarily signifies all and every man in the world. Should one examine that Scripture in Hebrews one sees very cloearly that in the Greek text "every man" is not there. In the original there is only 'υπερ παντος( huper pantos) for every, without the substantive man which might be supplied by other words as well as man, i.e., elect or believer. Everyone there is clearly restrained to all members of Christ and the children by him brought to glory.

The same may be said of Colossians 1:28. Paul said, "Whom we preach,warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:" Are we to believe that Paul warned and taught every particular man on the face of the earth during his     life time but that would be false and impossible. So that every man in the Scripture is not universally collective of all of all sorts but either distributive  for some of all sorts or  collective with a restriction to all of some sort as that of Paul "every man"was only of those to whom he had preached  the gospel.

The whole strength of the Universalist is turning indefinite propositions into universals where they conclude  that because Christ died for sinners therefore he died for all sinners because he died for the unjust,  ungodly and the world therefore he died for everyone that is unjust or ungodly and for everyone in the world because he died for all therefore for all and every one of all sorts of men. To show you the fallacy of their turning indefinite propositions into universals the same may be said of such arguments where we read that God "justifieth the ungodly" in Romans 4:5; using their argument therefore he justifieth everyone that is ungodly. Moreover, " whom he justifieth, them he also glorifieth" and therefore every ungodly person shall be glorified whether in Christ or not.

When Christ came, "men loved darkness rather than light" John 3:19; therefore, all men did so, and so none believed. Additionally, "the world knew not Christ" John 1:10; therefore, no man in the world knew him. 1 John 5:19, "The whole world lieth in wickedness" therefore everyone in the world does so. Such arguments as these turn indefinite propositions into universals and a fallacy.

God's willingness that all should be saved from 1 Timothy 2:4, if we take "all men" there for the universality of individuals then it may be asked. What act is it of God wherein this his willingness does consist? Is it in the eternal purpose of his will  that all should be saved? Why is it not accomplished? "Who has resisted his will?" Is it in an antecedent desire that it should be so though he fail in the end? Then is the blessed God most miserable it being not in him to accomplish his just and holy desires. Is it some temporary act  of his whereby he has declared himself unto them? That it be granted that salvation is only to be had in a Redeemer, in Jesus Christ, and give me an instance how God in any act whatsoever has declared his mind and revealed himself to all men, of all times and places concerning his willingness of their salvation by Jesus Christ a Redeemer and you should be troubled no more in this cause. Only to his elect salvation came!!!!

I am very much indebted to the writings of John Owen 1616 –  1683 for his enlightenment in my reading his work on The Atonement.

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PostPosted: 01-17-2017 6:20 am
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larry joseph pearson wrote:
I enjoyed all the posts on the subject. My assumption is that the person  in dialogue with St._Worm2 was taking an indefinite proposition and turning it into a universal. This is also the case of Hebrews 2:9. There we see the words  "tasting death for every man." What is denied is that every man always and necessarily signifies all and every man in the world. Should one examine that Scripture in Hebrews one sees very cloearly that in the Greek text "every man" is not there. In the original there is only 'υπερ παντος( huper pantos) for every, without the substantive man which might be supplied by other words as well as man, i.e., elect or believer. Everyone there is clearly restrained to all members of Christ and the children by him brought to glory.

The same may be said of Colossians 1:28. Paul said, "Whom we preach,warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:" Are we to believe that Paul warned and taught every particular man on the face of the earth during his     life time but that would be false and impossible. So that every man in the Scripture is not universally collective of all of all sorts but either distributive  for some of all sorts or  collective with a restriction to all of some sort as that of Paul "every man"was only of those to whom he had preached  the gospel.

The whole strength of the Universalist is turning indefinite propositions into universals where they conclude  that because Christ died for sinners therefore he died for all sinners because he died for the unjust,  ungodly and the world therefore he died for everyone that is unjust or ungodly and for everyone in the world because he died for all therefore for all and every one of all sorts of men. To show you the fallacy of their turning indefinite propositions into universals the same may be said of such arguments where we read that God "justifieth the ungodly" in Romans 4:5; using their argument therefore he justifieth everyone that is ungodly. Moreover, " whom he justifieth, them he also glorifieth" and therefore every ungodly person shall be glorified whether in Christ or not.

When Christ came, "men loved darkness rather than light" John 3:19; therefore, all men did so, and so none believed. Additionally, "the world knew not Christ" John 1:10; therefore, no man in the world knew him. 1 John 5:19, "The whole world lieth in wickedness" therefore everyone in the world does so. Such arguments as these turn indefinite propositions into universals and a fallacy.

God's willingness that all should be saved from 1 Timothy 2:4, if we take "all men" there for the universality of individuals then it may be asked. What act is it of God wherein this his willingness does consist? Is it in the eternal purpose of his will  that all should be saved? Why is it not accomplished? "Who has resisted his will?" Is it in an antecedent desire that it should be so though he fail in the end? Then is the blessed God most miserable it being not in him to accomplish his just and holy desires. Is it some temporary act  of his whereby he has declared himself unto them? That it be granted that salvation is only to be had in a Redeemer, in Jesus Christ, and give me an instance how God in any act whatsoever has declared his mind and revealed himself to all men, of all times and places concerning his willingness of their salvation by Jesus Christ a Redeemer and you should be troubled no more in this cause. Only to his elect salvation came!!!!

I am very much indebted to the writings of John Owen 1616 –  1683 for his enlightenment in my reading his work on The Atonement.


Very good post!
The all that Jesus died for, the all whom God loves and saves has to be seen in the contex of the entire NT, as it is very clear that few will receive Jesus and have ternal life, while many well keep on rejecting Him and stay on the broad road of destruction.

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