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nikolai_42


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PostPosted: 12-09-2016 10:21 am
Post Number: 25793
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For full disclosure, I posted this on "another" board in basically the same format. While I don't expect the same level of interaction (or thoughtfulness) from most people there as here, I wanted to see how it was addressed.

The future state, heaven and the New Jerusalem are all closely related. And the general idea seems to be that there's the unregenerate in hell and the regenerate in heaven. The New Jerusalem and the new heavens and the new earth seem synonymous (and at this point, that is the admitted assumption I am making) but by doing so, I'm wondering if the waters get muddied.

To this end, I note that Peter makes the following statement :

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 2 Peter 3:11-13

In Revelation, we read this :

And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
...
And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

 Revelation 21:9-10,25-27

Where it gets complicated is when one reads things like Isaiah's final words of prophecy :

For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

  Isaiah 66:22-24

It is clear from Isaiah's words that the new heavens and new earth (the same term being used by Peter in connection with the thought that righteousness dwells there) isn't as pristine as it seems. In Revelation, it seems nothing that is wicked even enters in. In Isaiah, it seems that there is some sort of memorial to the judgment of wicked men at least in the vicinity of the New Jerusalem. With that understanding, it could be that the phrase "And they shall go forth" means venturing outside of the New Jerusalem. But don't the words of Peter imply that all that is destroyed?

Again - I note that the New Jerusalem here doesn't necessarily cover the whole earth. But if the whole earth (and heavens) are made new, does that imply that even that which is outside of the New Jerusalem is renewed? You can see how Isaiah 66, then, becomes a bit of a question in my mind (as to what, exactly, is being said).

My primary questions (though the ones embedded above are not to be taken as rhetorical) :

1. What is it about heaven that makes it a place of sinessness? More specifically, if the gates of the New Jerusalem are always open, what is keeping the wickedness out?
2. Why the necessity for (from man's perspective) a great length of time to "bring many sons to glory"?
3. What is preventing another fall of man (in the new heavens and new earth) as with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden? When God originally created, He called everything "good". What is the difference between the "good" of Genesis and the "holy" of Revelation 21?

Any direct or tangential responses are greatly appreciated. I know this is probably a complicated and complex issue (in reality).
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nikolai_42


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PostPosted: 12-09-2016 10:42 am
Post Number: 25794
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Let me add as emphatically as I can that these are not questions for the sake of questioning God (as some of the questions might be interpreted if read a certain way). I am merely asking if the scriptures directly, indirectly or even tangentially answer these questions or even hint at those answers. I am NOT (in the sense of Romans 9:20) asking why God made man this way. I realize that God is God and that we are not and that it isn't always the case that He reveals everything about His plans and purposes. So I am content if the answer to some (most?) of the questions is that it is in no way revealed or implied in Scripture.
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PostPosted: 12-10-2016 7:14 am
Post Number: 25795
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nikolai_42 wrote:
Let me add as emphatically as I can that these are not questions for the sake of questioning God (as some of the questions might be interpreted if read a certain way). I am merely asking if the scriptures directly, indirectly or even tangentially answer these questions or even hint at those answers. I am NOT (in the sense of Romans 9:20) asking why God made man this way. I realize that God is God and that we are not and that it isn't always the case that He reveals everything about His plans and purposes. So I am content if the answer to some (most?) of the questions is that it is in no way revealed or implied in Scripture.


The New Jerusalem is the city of all of tha saved of God that is in the Eternal State, so just glorified saints in there, and all others would be in Hell?

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nikolai_42


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PostPosted: 12-10-2016 8:41 am
Post Number: 25797
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DrWhofan1 wrote:
nikolai_42 wrote:
Let me add as emphatically as I can that these are not questions for the sake of questioning God (as some of the questions might be interpreted if read a certain way). I am merely asking if the scriptures directly, indirectly or even tangentially answer these questions or even hint at those answers. I am NOT (in the sense of Romans 9:20) asking why God made man this way. I realize that God is God and that we are not and that it isn't always the case that He reveals everything about His plans and purposes. So I am content if the answer to some (most?) of the questions is that it is in no way revealed or implied in Scripture.


The New Jerusalem is the city of all of tha saved of God that is in the Eternal State, so just glorified saints in there, and all others would be in Hell?


One of the things that has me wondering what is going on in the New Heavens and New Earth is that Isaiah says that in them, the whole world will go and worship before Him. So the New Jerusalem seems (as the bride of Christ) to be in view here (as a people, at least). But Isaiah says that they go forth and look at all the carcases of those who were judged and they shall be an abhorring to all flesh. This is not suggestive of the gulf fixed that people often refer to in this eschatological context. At least not when I read it. Maybe I'm misreading it, but Isaiah's declaration seems to indicate a memorial to the judgment of sin in the midst of the New Jerusalem.

Having said that, the numbered questions were really what I had hoped to focus on (I think my OP may have obscured that). I mainly brought up this (possible) disconnect between Isaiah's New Heavens and New Earth and that read of in Revelation. Not that only one is true, but that something is missing in my understanding. Either way, I do believe that heaven is a place of sinlessness. All things are made new...He will wipe away the tears from every eye...nothing will be let in that offends etc... - so there is no doubt that this is a pristine spiritual environment. It just seems a little odd (to me) that there would be what amounts to a reminder of sin's outcome. Isn't the old passed away?
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Hitch


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PostPosted: 12-10-2016 9:10 am
Post Number: 25798
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I reckon two main themes give a better perspective.

Jesus said a man must be born-again,  born from above.

It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

The origin  of our faith  is heavenly, and so our calling and  status  'in  Christ'.  It is easy to remember  where  the  New  Jerusalem comes from.

The next is far more  important .

The  differences between  the  First and Second Adam.  The first is earthly the Second  heavenly. The first works  can only age the creation the  Second works can only redeem and purify the creation, making all things new. The redemption  is far more powerful than the fall, just as the Second Adam  is far more powerful than the first.
To say that  'the heavens and earth'   remain  old, under the curse,  is to  reckon  Adams  sin more powerful than the fulfillment of  God's redemptive plan  including  Christ's shed blood .

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


As you pointed out  the  Prophet   clearly sets the  NH&E  in history, setting the context for the  Apostolic explanation.  And we know from  many passages our victory is realized  in the sight of the enemy, not it's absence.

As far as  Pete's term' the elements'.  I think is absurd to apply modern day physics  to this passage. It is far more likely the reference  point is the destruction  of   Jerusalem and the  temple,  an event  some years  future  as it relates to the author.  The elements are no more earth ,fire and water than they are  Oxygen,lead and gold. They are  the remains of the   obsolete pre- messianic  system.


As for  number one;  Heaven as  God's abode is not in  view especially since your question  is eschatological .

For  2 ,  God not only owns history and eternity but has ,evidently, set it all up for His glory  and our benefit. As our Lord pointed out in the parables we are to experience the historical processes of life even to the point of having contact with the enemy.  There is no earth or heavenly reason to be  in a   hurry.  History  is where the fall occurred, history is where the redemption  occurred history is  the locus of our victory over sin and death  through the  historical reality of the  cross and resurrection.

To  3; I think this one is answered  above,
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PostPosted: 12-10-2016 12:03 pm
Post Number: 25801
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nikolai_42 wrote:
DrWhofan1 wrote:
nikolai_42 wrote:
Let me add as emphatically as I can that these are not questions for the sake of questioning God (as some of the questions might be interpreted if read a certain way). I am merely asking if the scriptures directly, indirectly or even tangentially answer these questions or even hint at those answers. I am NOT (in the sense of Romans 9:20) asking why God made man this way. I realize that God is God and that we are not and that it isn't always the case that He reveals everything about His plans and purposes. So I am content if the answer to some (most?) of the questions is that it is in no way revealed or implied in Scripture.


The New Jerusalem is the city of all of tha saved of God that is in the Eternal State, so just glorified saints in there, and all others would be in Hell?


One of the things that has me wondering what is going on in the New Heavens and New Earth is that Isaiah says that in them, the whole world will go and worship before Him. So the New Jerusalem seems (as the bride of Christ) to be in view here (as a people, at least). But Isaiah says that they go forth and look at all the carcases of those who were judged and they shall be an abhorring to all flesh. This is not suggestive of the gulf fixed that people often refer to in this eschatological context. At least not when I read it. Maybe I'm misreading it, but Isaiah's declaration seems to indicate a memorial to the judgment of sin in the midst of the New Jerusalem.

Having said that, the numbered questions were really what I had hoped to focus on (I think my OP may have obscured that). I mainly brought up this (possible) disconnect between Isaiah's New Heavens and New Earth and that read of in Revelation. Not that only one is true, but that something is missing in my understanding. Either way, I do believe that heaven is a place of sinlessness. All things are made new...He will wipe away the tears from every eye...nothing will be let in that offends etc... - so there is no doubt that this is a pristine spiritual environment. It just seems a little odd (to me) that there would be what amounts to a reminder of sin's outcome. Isn't the old passed away?


The New Jerusalem would be the Final state, so just the saints of God are left to be in the New Creation in the end, correct?

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PostPosted: 12-10-2016 12:11 pm
Post Number: 25802
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DrWhofan1 wrote:
nikolai_42 wrote:
DrWhofan1 wrote:
nikolai_42 wrote:
Let me add as emphatically as I can that these are not questions for the sake of questioning God (as some of the questions might be interpreted if read a certain way). I am merely asking if the scriptures directly, indirectly or even tangentially answer these questions or even hint at those answers. I am NOT (in the sense of Romans 9:20) asking why God made man this way. I realize that God is God and that we are not and that it isn't always the case that He reveals everything about His plans and purposes. So I am content if the answer to some (most?) of the questions is that it is in no way revealed or implied in Scripture.


The New Jerusalem is the city of all of tha saved of God that is in the Eternal State, so just glorified saints in there, and all others would be in Hell?


One of the things that has me wondering what is going on in the New Heavens and New Earth is that Isaiah says that in them, the whole world will go and worship before Him. So the New Jerusalem seems (as the bride of Christ) to be in view here (as a people, at least). But Isaiah says that they go forth and look at all the carcases of those who were judged and they shall be an abhorring to all flesh. This is not suggestive of the gulf fixed that people often refer to in this eschatological context. At least not when I read it. Maybe I'm misreading it, but Isaiah's declaration seems to indicate a memorial to the judgment of sin in the midst of the New Jerusalem.

Having said that, the numbered questions were really what I had hoped to focus on (I think my OP may have obscured that). I mainly brought up this (possible) disconnect between Isaiah's New Heavens and New Earth and that read of in Revelation. Not that only one is true, but that something is missing in my understanding. Either way, I do believe that heaven is a place of sinlessness. All things are made new...He will wipe away the tears from every eye...nothing will be let in that offends etc... - so there is no doubt that this is a pristine spiritual environment. It just seems a little odd (to me) that there would be what amounts to a reminder of sin's outcome. Isn't the old passed away?


The New Jerusalem would be the Final state, so just the saints of God are left to be in the New Creation in the end, correct?



Code:
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


The writer of  Hebrews  doesnt seem to think  so  Who.
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PostPosted: 12-10-2016 2:00 pm
Post Number: 25803
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Hitch wrote:
DrWhofan1 wrote:
nikolai_42 wrote:
DrWhofan1 wrote:
nikolai_42 wrote:
Let me add as emphatically as I can that these are not questions for the sake of questioning God (as some of the questions might be interpreted if read a certain way). I am merely asking if the scriptures directly, indirectly or even tangentially answer these questions or even hint at those answers. I am NOT (in the sense of Romans 9:20) asking why God made man this way. I realize that God is God and that we are not and that it isn't always the case that He reveals everything about His plans and purposes. So I am content if the answer to some (most?) of the questions is that it is in no way revealed or implied in Scripture.


The New Jerusalem is the city of all of tha saved of God that is in the Eternal State, so just glorified saints in there, and all others would be in Hell?


One of the things that has me wondering what is going on in the New Heavens and New Earth is that Isaiah says that in them, the whole world will go and worship before Him. So the New Jerusalem seems (as the bride of Christ) to be in view here (as a people, at least). But Isaiah says that they go forth and look at all the carcases of those who were judged and they shall be an abhorring to all flesh. This is not suggestive of the gulf fixed that people often refer to in this eschatological context. At least not when I read it. Maybe I'm misreading it, but Isaiah's declaration seems to indicate a memorial to the judgment of sin in the midst of the New Jerusalem.

Having said that, the numbered questions were really what I had hoped to focus on (I think my OP may have obscured that). I mainly brought up this (possible) disconnect between Isaiah's New Heavens and New Earth and that read of in Revelation. Not that only one is true, but that something is missing in my understanding. Either way, I do believe that heaven is a place of sinlessness. All things are made new...He will wipe away the tears from every eye...nothing will be let in that offends etc... - so there is no doubt that this is a pristine spiritual environment. It just seems a little odd (to me) that there would be what amounts to a reminder of sin's outcome. Isn't the old passed away?


The New Jerusalem would be the Final state, so just the saints of God are left to be in the New Creation in the end, correct?



Code:
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


The writer of  Hebrews  doesnt seem to think  so  Who.


The Apostle John thought so in Revelation though....

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PostPosted: 12-10-2016 2:46 pm
Post Number: 25804
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The  current state and the final state?

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PostPosted: 12-13-2016 10:00 am
Post Number: 25812
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David wrote:
The  current state and the final state?


John seemed to see the New Jerusalem as the Final State of the saved,,,,

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David


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PostPosted: 12-13-2016 3:52 pm
Post Number: 25814
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Heb 12:22  But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

We have already come.

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PostPosted: 12-13-2016 10:47 pm
Post Number: 25815
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David wrote:
Heb 12:22  But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

We have already come.
I've had  DFs tell me the the heavenly Jerusalem and  the  New  Jerusalem  are not the same.  Talk about  'fake news'.
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PostPosted: 12-14-2016 11:14 am
Post Number: 25816
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David Cloud says that the Church is not Sion.(orZion)

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PostPosted: 12-14-2016 2:20 pm
Post Number: 25817
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David wrote:
David Cloud says that the Church is not Sion.(orZion)


The New Jerusalem seems to be the Church and Israel of the Old Covenant together, or to say, the saved from both Old.New Covenants now in same Body unto God forever more....

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