Log in to check your private messages 
Username: Password:   
  Reformed Theology Institute
  RTI, founded July 2008, is a venue for Reformed theology, education, training, and discussion.
Index  FAQ  Search  Memberlist  Usergroups  Profile Scroll to Bottom  RTI Portal New Posts Since Last Visit
Recent Posts    
    Join! (free)   
 

Log in
   Username:
   Password:
   Log me on automatically each visit
  
Welcome
Guest

IP Address: 54.80.248.78


Useful Resources

RTI Main Menu
Home Page
Forums
How-To FAQs
Membership Central
Photo/Doc Gallery
Private Messages
Smilies
Bible Encyclopedia
Bible Tool

RTI Announcements
Crowdfunding for RTI Web Site Server Administrators
TNARS Degree Study Discussion Forums Closed
Help RTI Grow
Hotmail Email Domain No Longer Supported for Members
Adopt a Smiley $$ Campaign
Welcome New Members!
RTI Standards of Conduct
Before You Post: Review The SoF and Rules of Conduct
RTI Statement of Faith
About RTI

RTI Latest Topics
Peter Jones
Serious medical concern

RTI Popular Topics
How to refute Landmark Baptists?
Preferences On NA28 or UBS 5th editions
Should we base theology on end of Mark's Gospel?
Greek Grammar In Light of Historical Research
The New Jerusalem and Righteousness
2 Peter 3:9 and word "all"
What book is good for those new to the faith?
NKJV Bible search
Indwelling versus Infilling of the Holy Spirit
What is difference perservation of saints/eternal security?



 
Jump to:  
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Reformed Theology Institute Forum Index » Perseverance of the Saints » What is difference perservation of saints/eternal security?
Author Message

DrWhofan1


RTI Guru



Joined: 20 Oct 2014
postcomment
postcomment
Posts: 861
Rep Level: 4
Rep Points: 25
Rep Hits: 7


Rep This Post

PostPosted: 02-02-2017 7:02 am
Post Number: 25886
 Reply with quote

As we Baptists tend to see it more in eternal security, so what would be, if any, main differences here?

View user's profile Send private message Find all posts by user

Ask Mr. Religion


Admin



Joined: 28 Jul 2008
postcomment
postcomment
Posts: 4767
Rep Level: 5
Rep Points: 211
Rep Hits: 44

Location: Chandler, AZ
Rep This Post

PostPosted: 02-02-2017 12:35 pm
Post Number: 25889
Reply with quote

OSAS tends to lead to the view that there is nothing remaining for the believer in their walk of faith. Who denies that there are not a few of those that sign the pledge card or answer a Finneyistic altar call soon show themselves to be not of us for they went out of us?

The reason is that the typical OSAS view, never carefully explained from the pulpit, ends up in error, such as in Keswickian Exchanged Life views that include rationales leading to licentiousness--doing whatever a person wants "now that I am saved and always will be". OSAS fosters the wrong mindset.

Beloved, believers are not mere punctiliar (one-time event) Christians. The Spirit waters and feeds our repentance and faith through the means of grace. These means keep us alive in the faith and are not just a means for starting us in the faith. God commands our ongoing attention to our faith, that we examine ourselves (feed our faith, starve our doubts) to make sure our faith is real. God also provides that which He commands, ordaining the ends as well as the means to the ends—even the believer's conversion (re-birth, faith, sanctification, final glory). Augustine's little prayer sums it up: "O Lord, grant what Thou dost command and command what Thou dost desire." Pelagius never grasped what Augustine meant, failing to see that no one can please God unless God provides us in some manner via His means to meet His requirements.

As Scripture teaches, enduring to the end, holding fast to the faith, abiding in Christ and His Word are vital to one's conversion (“conversion” here meaning the full salvific process). If these evidences of faith do not exist a professing Christian, upon self examination, should question their conversion to prove it out. But in no way whatsoever does this perseverance imply doing good works. Rather it is from the believer’s duty, their “oughtness” that good works springs, and yet even these good works are not at all of themselves, but wholly from the Spirit of Christ.

But, and this is important, there are some who would hold that a true believer may not persevere and can be ultimately lost. Such is but the view originating from Rome that has smuggled into evangelicals who harbor semi-Pelagianism bringing dishonor to God and Our Lord for what He did for us.

At this point, some would then ask, "Well, if the believer will persevere then why do the Scriptures contain admonitions and warning verses for salvation?" In reply I answer, as noted above, God ordains the end but also the means to the end.  One of those means of God for His glory is the perseverance of the believer in faith to the end. God effects His means of perseverance in the believer by admonishing them of the consequences of not persevering to the end. We must take these admonishments seriously. Why? Because these admonishments serve as a means to stir up the faithful.

An example from Scripture might help explain. Consider Paul about to be shipwrecked in Acts 27. We read that God had assured Paul that no one would lose their life in that shipwreck. Yet, despite this clear assurance from God, Paul, being stirred up, admonishes those on the ship that unless the persons trying to leave by the lifeboat remain on board, those on the ship would not be saved. Note here that the Apostle was assured of their salvation, Paul knew the means of their salvation, and his warning produced the desired result.

Speaking under the superintended inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Peter tells us that those who are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God" and "begotten again unto a lively hope" are "kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." ().

The perseverance of the saints is guaranteed, not by some detached divine fiat; the success of God’s saving work is ensured by the ongoing, personal, attentive care of the Savior, the High Priest, who intercedes for His people to ensure that we are held secure in the plan of redemption.

Indeed, God's almighty power preserves the true believer so that he or she receives that final and complete salvation that will be revealed at the eschaton. It can be no other way, for the work of salvation is God's work and God's work does not fail.

The teachings of the perseverance of the saints in Scripture is succinctly described in the Westminster Confession of Faith as follows:
Spoiler:



Chapter XVII - Of the Perseverance of the Saints.
1. They, whom God hath accepted in His Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved. (, , , )

2. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; (, ) upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ, (, , , , , , ) the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them, (, , ) and the nature of the covenant of grace: () from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof. (, , )

3. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; () and, for a time, continue therein: (Ps. 51 title, ) whereby they incur God’s displeasure, (, ) and grieve His Holy Spirit, () come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts, (, , Cant. ) have their hearts hardened, (, , ) and their consciences wounded; (, ) hurt and scandalize others, () and bring temporal judgments upon themselves. (, )



AMR
_________________
AMR (a.k.a. Patrick)
Arizona Arizona, it's a dry heat!

Do You Confess?
Faculty PRBS
My Randomata Blog


View user's profile Send private message Find all posts by user Visit poster's website

DrWhofan1


RTI Guru



Joined: 20 Oct 2014
postcomment
postcomment
Posts: 861
Rep Level: 4
Rep Points: 25
Rep Hits: 7


Rep This Post

PostPosted: 02-02-2017 1:19 pm
Post Number: 25890
Reply with quote

Ask Mr. Religion wrote:
OSAS tends to lead to the view that there is nothing remaining for the believer in their walk of faith. Who denies that there are not a few of those that sign the pledge card or answer a Finneyistic altar call soon show themselves to be not of us for they went out of us?

The reason is that the typical OSAS view, never carefully explained from the pulpit, ends up in error, such as in Keswickian Exchanged Life views that include rationales leading to licentiousness--doing whatever a person wants "now that I am saved and always will be". OSAS fosters the wrong mindset.


Would there be a difference based upon how the pastor/teacher explains this issue? As have heard etrnal security explained from the scriptures as we are secured and being held by God, father draws us to Jesus, Jesus saves us, Spirit seals us, but that is not a liceanse to sin, but one to live in obedience to God not to earn or maintain salvation, but thanks for him saving us from our sins?

That seems to be pretty close to perservance, correct?

View user's profile Send private message Find all posts by user

Ask Mr. Religion


Admin



Joined: 28 Jul 2008
postcomment
postcomment
Posts: 4767
Rep Level: 5
Rep Points: 211
Rep Hits: 44

Location: Chandler, AZ
Rep This Post

PostPosted: 02-02-2017 2:49 pm
Post Number: 25893
Reply with quote

DrWhofan1 wrote:


Would there be a difference based upon how the pastor/teacher explains this issue? As have heard etrnal security explained from the scriptures as we are secured and being held by God, father draws us to Jesus, Jesus saves us, Spirit seals us, but that is not a liceanse to sin, but one to live in obedience to God not to earn or maintain salvation, but thanks for him saving us from our sins?

That seems to be pretty close to perservance, correct?
No. I do not see this as anything close to POS. Part and parcel POS assumes a one-time act, a punctiliar action. Easy believism POS ignores the fact that the Spirit waters and feeds our repentance and faith through the means of grace. These means keep us alive in the faith and are not just a means for starting us in the faith. God commands our ongoing attention to our faith, that we examine ourselves (feed our faith, starve our doubts) to make sure our faith is real. God also provides that which He commands, ordaining the ends as well as the means to the ends—even the believer's conversion (re-birth, faith, sanctification, final glory). Augustine's little prayer sums it up: "O Lord, grant what Thou dost command and command what Thou dost desire."

It is God who keeps us and preserves us. No matter how it is explained, OSAS ignores the ever-working God via the His means is what keeps us alive in the faith.
_________________
AMR (a.k.a. Patrick)
Arizona Arizona, it's a dry heat!

Do You Confess?
Faculty PRBS
My Randomata Blog


View user's profile Send private message Find all posts by user Visit poster's website

DrWhofan1


RTI Guru



Joined: 20 Oct 2014
postcomment
postcomment
Posts: 861
Rep Level: 4
Rep Points: 25
Rep Hits: 7


Rep This Post

PostPosted: 02-03-2017 6:57 am
Post Number: 25894
Reply with quote

Ask Mr. Religion wrote:
DrWhofan1 wrote:


Would there be a difference based upon how the pastor/teacher explains this issue? As have heard etrnal security explained from the scriptures as we are secured and being held by God, father draws us to Jesus, Jesus saves us, Spirit seals us, but that is not a liceanse to sin, but one to live in obedience to God not to earn or maintain salvation, but thanks for him saving us from our sins?

That seems to be pretty close to perservance, correct?
No. I do not see this as anything close to POS. Part and parcel POS assumes a one-time act, a punctiliar action. Easy believism POS ignores the fact that the Spirit waters and feeds our repentance and faith through the means of grace. These means keep us alive in the faith and are not just a means for starting us in the faith. God commands our ongoing attention to our faith, that we examine ourselves (feed our faith, starve our doubts) to make sure our faith is real. God also provides that which He commands, ordaining the ends as well as the means to the ends—even the believer's conversion (re-birth, faith, sanctification, final glory). Augustine's little prayer sums it up: "O Lord, grant what Thou dost command and command what Thou dost desire."

It is God who keeps us and preserves us. No matter how it is explained, OSAS ignores the ever-working God via the His means is what keeps us alive in the faith.


So OSAS would be denying the aspects of the grace that God provodes to us to contunue to grow and mature and perserve, sucj as the ordiances, fellowship, Scripture etc?

View user's profile Send private message Find all posts by user

Ask Mr. Religion


Admin



Joined: 28 Jul 2008
postcomment
postcomment
Posts: 4767
Rep Level: 5
Rep Points: 211
Rep Hits: 44

Location: Chandler, AZ
Rep This Post

PostPosted: 02-03-2017 9:07 am
Post Number: 25897
Reply with quote

DrWhofan1 wrote:

So OSAS would be denying the aspects of the grace that God provides to us to continue to grow and mature and persevere, such as the ordinances, fellowship, Scripture etc?

It goes beyond this.

Preservation of the Saints would hold that the one who fails to persevere has not been called according to God’s plan and chosen in Christ according to God’s purpose. God’s sovereignty in election and predestination, then, is the basis of final perseverance. God’s elect will certainly persevere to the end and attain eternal salvation.

Our Lord says, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.” All whom the Father gives are drawn; all who are drawn come; all who come will be received; and He will never cast any of them out. Why would the Son reject a love gift from the Father? Our salvation in Christ is secure not because believers are so inherently desirable—we are not. We are secure because we are a gift from the Father to the Son, and because of the love of the Son for the Father. Christ responds to the Father’s expression of love in perfect gratitude, opening His arms to embrace the gift. The same infinite, inscrutable love that set us aside as a gift in eternity past now holds us secure in loving gratitude forever.

OSAS ignores this and assumes all are given equal access to divine grace, the human will becomes the decisive factor that distinguishes those who accept the gospel from those who reject it.
_________________
AMR (a.k.a. Patrick)
Arizona Arizona, it's a dry heat!

Do You Confess?
Faculty PRBS
My Randomata Blog


View user's profile Send private message Find all posts by user Visit poster's website

DrWhofan1


RTI Guru



Joined: 20 Oct 2014
postcomment
postcomment
Posts: 861
Rep Level: 4
Rep Points: 25
Rep Hits: 7


Rep This Post

PostPosted: 02-03-2017 12:19 pm
Post Number: 25898
Reply with quote

Ask Mr. Religion wrote:
DrWhofan1 wrote:

So OSAS would be denying the aspects of the grace that God provides to us to continue to grow and mature and persevere, such as the ordinances, fellowship, Scripture etc?

It goes beyond this.

Preservation of the Saints would hold that the one who fails to persevere has not been called according to God’s plan and chosen in Christ according to God’s purpose. God’s sovereignty in election and predestination, then, is the basis of final perseverance. God’s elect will certainly persevere to the end and attain eternal salvation.

Our Lord says, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.” All whom the Father gives are drawn; all who are drawn come; all who come will be received; and He will never cast any of them out. Why would the Son reject a love gift from the Father? Our salvation in Christ is secure not because believers are so inherently desirable—we are not. We are secure because we are a gift from the Father to the Son, and because of the love of the Son for the Father. Christ responds to the Father’s expression of love in perfect gratitude, opening His arms to embrace the gift. The same infinite, inscrutable love that set us aside as a gift in eternity past now holds us secure in loving gratitude forever.

OSAS ignores this and assumes all are given equal access to divine grace, the human will becomes the decisive factor that distinguishes those who accept the gospel from those who reject it.


Due to them being the ones who "decided" to become a Christian, they would be keeping themselves saved then?

View user's profile Send private message Find all posts by user

Ask Mr. Religion


Admin



Joined: 28 Jul 2008
postcomment
postcomment
Posts: 4767
Rep Level: 5
Rep Points: 211
Rep Hits: 44

Location: Chandler, AZ
Rep This Post

PostPosted: 02-03-2017 12:45 pm
Post Number: 25900
Reply with quote

DrWhofan1 wrote:
Ask Mr. Religion wrote:
DrWhofan1 wrote:

So OSAS would be denying the aspects of the grace that God provides to us to continue to grow and mature and persevere, such as the ordinances, fellowship, Scripture etc?

It goes beyond this.

Preservation of the Saints would hold that the one who fails to persevere has not been called according to God’s plan and chosen in Christ according to God’s purpose. God’s sovereignty in election and predestination, then, is the basis of final perseverance. God’s elect will certainly persevere to the end and attain eternal salvation.

Our Lord says, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.” All whom the Father gives are drawn; all who are drawn come; all who come will be received; and He will never cast any of them out. Why would the Son reject a love gift from the Father? Our salvation in Christ is secure not because believers are so inherently desirable—we are not. We are secure because we are a gift from the Father to the Son, and because of the love of the Son for the Father. Christ responds to the Father’s expression of love in perfect gratitude, opening His arms to embrace the gift. The same infinite, inscrutable love that set us aside as a gift in eternity past now holds us secure in loving gratitude forever.

OSAS ignores this and assumes all are given equal access to divine grace, the human will becomes the decisive factor that distinguishes those who accept the gospel from those who reject it.


Due to them being the ones who "decided" to become a Christian, they would be keeping themselves saved then?

Sort of.

The OSAS proponent will state that they are being kept saved by the Spirit. The view is borne from the underlying view of Arminian "election", that is, that God's elect are those He foresaw who would choose rightly when hearing the Good News when God looked ahead down the corridors of time to see who would and would not choose wisely. The idea is that since these persons made good use of the grace all receive equally, these persons will also continue to make use of grace and keep themselves saved.

Seeing themselves as the captains of their own destiny, the anti-Calvinists thusly should conduct themselves in communion with their Maker along the following lines:

    “Lord, I thank thee that I am not like these poor, presumptuous Calvinists. Lord, I was born with a glorious free will; I was born with a power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace as I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know that thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves… it was not thy grace that made us differ… I made use of what was given me, and others did not—that is the difference between me and them.”

    Src: Spurgeon, Sermon on  “Free Will a Slave” The New Park Street Pulpit, 1855- 1856, Volumes I & II (Pilgrim 1975), 395-402.


Ironically, the anti-Calvinist would be shocked by the above prayer, despite its accurate summary of what they publicly declare. They can be very double-minded when it comes to what they say and how they pray. This is why I often state

    Lex orandi, lex credenda: everyone is a Calvinist on their knees.


Note: the loose translation of the Latin trope is how one prays defines what one believes.
_________________
AMR (a.k.a. Patrick)
Arizona Arizona, it's a dry heat!

Do You Confess?
Faculty PRBS
My Randomata Blog


View user's profile Send private message Find all posts by user Visit poster's website

DrWhofan1


RTI Guru



Joined: 20 Oct 2014
postcomment
postcomment
Posts: 861
Rep Level: 4
Rep Points: 25
Rep Hits: 7


Rep This Post

PostPosted: 02-03-2017 2:54 pm
Post Number: 25903
Reply with quote

Ask Mr. Religion wrote:
DrWhofan1 wrote:
Ask Mr. Religion wrote:
DrWhofan1 wrote:

So OSAS would be denying the aspects of the grace that God provides to us to continue to grow and mature and persevere, such as the ordinances, fellowship, Scripture etc?

It goes beyond this.

Preservation of the Saints would hold that the one who fails to persevere has not been called according to God’s plan and chosen in Christ according to God’s purpose. God’s sovereignty in election and predestination, then, is the basis of final perseverance. God’s elect will certainly persevere to the end and attain eternal salvation.

OSAS ignores this and assumes all are given equal access to divine grace, the human will becomes the decisive factor that distinguishes those who accept the gospel from those who reject it.


Due to them being the ones who "decided" to become a Christian, they would be keeping themselves saved then?

Sort of.

The OSAS proponent will state that they are being kept saved by the Spirit. The view is borne from the underlying view of Arminian "election", that is, that God's elect are those He foresaw who would choose rightly when hearing the Good News when God looked ahead down the corridors of time to see who would and would not choose wisely. The idea is that since these persons made good use of the grace all receive equally, these persons will also continue to make use of grace and keep themselves saved.

Seeing themselves as the captains of their own destiny, the anti-Calvinists thusly should conduct themselves in communion with their Maker along the following lines:

    “Lord, I thank thee that I am not like these poor, presumptuous Calvinists. Lord, I was born with a glorious free will; I was born with a power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace as I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know that thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves… it was not thy grace that made us differ… I made use of what was given me, and others did not—that is the difference between me and them.”

    Src: Spurgeon, Sermon on  “Free Will a Slave” The New Park Street Pulpit, 1855- 1856, Volumes I & II (Pilgrim 1975), 395-402.


Ironically, the anti-Calvinist would be shocked by the above prayer, despite its accurate summary of what they publicly declare. They can be very double-minded when it comes to what they say and how they pray. This is why I often state

    Lex orandi, lex credenda: everyone is a Calvinist on their knees.


Note: the loose translation of the Latin trope is how one prays defines what one believes.


I have yet to see one holding to free will salvation give a coherent answer as to just why some accept Jesus, while others reject him, for if God is no respector of persons for salvation, how did they not all get saved then?

View user's profile Send private message Find all posts by user

Ask Mr. Religion


Admin



Joined: 28 Jul 2008
postcomment
postcomment
Posts: 4767
Rep Level: 5
Rep Points: 211
Rep Hits: 44

Location: Chandler, AZ
Rep This Post

PostPosted: 02-03-2017 3:31 pm
Post Number: 25905
Reply with quote

DrWhofan1 wrote:
I have yet to see one holding to free will salvation give a coherent answer as to just why some accept Jesus, while others reject him, for if God is no respector of persons for salvation, how did they not all get saved then?


They cannot do so without some tortuous attempts to avoid the obvious issue: that they were somehow more wise, more discerning, more willing than their neighbor. It will always come down to something about themselves that made them "better" that the person who chose wrongly. Trying to deny their obvious reasons to boast results in all manner of foolish answers.

Which is why all discussions related to Reformed versus non-Reformed views of salvation must start with the proper understanding of the effects of the fall of Adam. All sinned in Adam, just as if we were actually there with him when he sinned. We are born sinners. We are not born morally neutral and become sinners by sinning. Scripture makes it clear what the moral state of the unbeliever comprises. The unbeliever will never seek God's righteousness, for the unbeliever

- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- is not able to come to Jesus unless given to by God (Eph. 2:2);
- must be quickened by God (Eph. 2:4-5);
- cannot choose righteousness until regenerated (Titus 3:5);
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

It is only when God the Holy Spirit regeneratively replaces their lost hearts of stone (Eze. 36:26) that the lost are given the moral ability to believe and then irrevocably evidence the first fruits of their regeneration—faith and repentance.

All should be in awe that God saves anyone, for all are born fallen in Adam and deserve no mercy from God, only justice. The great wonder is that God mercifully saves even one person, and not the great multitude no man can number. Would that all give God all the glory (one-hundred percent) for their salvation rather than clinging on to some humanistic notion of their own wisdom, their supposed openness to being "wooed" by the Holy Spirit, choosing rightly while their neighbor chooses wrongly, etc.

AMR
_________________
AMR (a.k.a. Patrick)
Arizona Arizona, it's a dry heat!

Do You Confess?
Faculty PRBS
My Randomata Blog


View user's profile Send private message Find all posts by user Visit poster's website

David


Invested Member



Joined: 24 Sep 2015
postcomment
postcomment
Posts: 142
Rep Level: 5
Rep Points: 10
Rep Hits: 2

Location: Kent, England
Rep This Post

PostPosted: 02-04-2017 9:38 am
Post Number: 25906
Reply with quote

DrWhofan1 wrote:
Ask Mr. Religion wrote:
DrWhofan1 wrote:
Ask Mr. Religion wrote:
DrWhofan1 wrote:

So OSAS would be denying the aspects of the grace that God provides to us to continue to grow and mature and persevere, such as the ordinances, fellowship, Scripture etc?

It goes beyond this.

Preservation of the Saints would hold that the one who fails to persevere has not been called according to God’s plan and chosen in Christ according to God’s purpose. God’s sovereignty in election and predestination, then, is the basis of final perseverance. God’s elect will certainly persevere to the end and attain eternal salvation.

OSAS ignores this and assumes all are given equal access to divine grace, the human will becomes the decisive factor that distinguishes those who accept the gospel from those who reject it.


Due to them being the ones who "decided" to become a Christian, they would be keeping themselves saved then?

Sort of.

The OSAS proponent will state that they are being kept saved by the Spirit. The view is borne from the underlying view of Arminian "election", that is, that God's elect are those He foresaw who would choose rightly when hearing the Good News when God looked ahead down the corridors of time to see who would and would not choose wisely. The idea is that since these persons made good use of the grace all receive equally, these persons will also continue to make use of grace and keep themselves saved.

Seeing themselves as the captains of their own destiny, the anti-Calvinists thusly should conduct themselves in communion with their Maker along the following lines:

    “Lord, I thank thee that I am not like these poor, presumptuous Calvinists. Lord, I was born with a glorious free will; I was born with a power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace as I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know that thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves… it was not thy grace that made us differ… I made use of what was given me, and others did not—that is the difference between me and them.”

    Src: Spurgeon, Sermon on  “Free Will a Slave” The New Park Street Pulpit, 1855- 1856, Volumes I & II (Pilgrim 1975), 395-402.


Ironically, the anti-Calvinist would be shocked by the above prayer, despite its accurate summary of what they publicly declare. They can be very double-minded when it comes to what they say and how they pray. This is why I often state

    Lex orandi, lex credenda: everyone is a Calvinist on their knees.


Note: the loose translation of the Latin trope is how one prays defines what one believes.


I have yet to see one holding to free will salvation give a coherent answer as to just why some accept Jesus, while others reject him, for if God is no respector of persons for salvation, how did they not all get saved then?

I think they put it down to free will.  I say to them, "if you have free will to accept Christ, then you must have free will later to change your mind."  They say that once saved you are always saved.

View user's profile Send private message Find all posts by user

Ask Mr. Religion


Admin



Joined: 28 Jul 2008
postcomment
postcomment
Posts: 4767
Rep Level: 5
Rep Points: 211
Rep Hits: 44

Location: Chandler, AZ
Rep This Post

PostPosted: 02-04-2017 12:19 pm
Post Number: 25907
Reply with quote

David wrote:

I think they put it down to free will.  I say to them, "if you have free will to accept Christ, then you must have free will later to change your mind."  They say that once saved you are always saved.


Such is the inconsistency of the libertarian free will proponent. Sigh.
_________________
AMR (a.k.a. Patrick)
Arizona Arizona, it's a dry heat!

Do You Confess?
Faculty PRBS
My Randomata Blog


View user's profile Send private message Find all posts by user Visit poster's website

DrWhofan1


RTI Guru



Joined: 20 Oct 2014
postcomment
postcomment
Posts: 861
Rep Level: 4
Rep Points: 25
Rep Hits: 7


Rep This Post

PostPosted: 02-04-2017 2:35 pm
Post Number: 25908
Reply with quote

Ask Mr. Religion wrote:
David wrote:

I think they put it down to free will.  I say to them, "if you have free will to accept Christ, then you must have free will later to change your mind."  They say that once saved you are always saved.


Such is the inconsistency of the libertarian free will proponent. Sigh.


What is really ironic is some have told me God still honors free will enough to let us walk away, while others hold to OSAS...

View user's profile Send private message Find all posts by user

Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Reformed Theology Institute Forum Index » Perseverance of the Saints


 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Back to top




Welcome To RTI Guest!