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Post new topic   Reply to topic    Reformed Theology Institute Forum Index » Perseverance of the Saints » Indwelling versus Infilling of the Holy Spirit
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PostPosted: 02-02-2017 7:04 am
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Are there differences between the indwelling and being filled by the Spirit? How do we maintain being continually refilled?

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PostPosted: 02-02-2017 8:27 am
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The "being filled" relates to our growth in grace.

In the WCF, Chapter 13. Of Sanctification, we read:

1. They, who are once effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart, and a new spirit created in them, are further sanctified, really and personally, through the virtue of Christ’s death and resurrection, (1 Cor. 6:11, Acts 20:32, Phil. 3:10, Rom. 6:5-6) by His Word and Spirit dwelling in them, (John 17:17, Eph. 5:26, 2 Thess. 2:13) the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed, (Rom. 6:6,14) and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified; (Gal. 5:24, Rom. 8:13) and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces, (Col. 1:11, Eph. 3:16-19) to the practice of true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. (2 Cor. 7:1, Heb. 12:14)

2. This sanctification is throughout, in the whole man; (1 Thess. 5:23) yet imperfect in this life, there abiding still some remnants of corruption in every part; (1 John 1:10, Rom. 7:18, 23, Phil. 3:12) whence ariseth a continual and irreconcilable war, the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. (Gal. 5:17, 1 Pet. 2:11)

3. In which war, although the remaining corruption, for a time, may much prevail; (Rom. 7:23) yet, through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part doth overcome; (Rom. 6:14, 1 John 5:4, Eph. 4:15-16) and so, the saints grow in grace, (2 Pet. 3:18, 2 Cor. 3:18) perfecting holiness in the fear of God. (2 Cor. 7:1)
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PostPosted: 02-02-2017 1:20 pm
Post Number: 25891
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Ask Mr. Religion wrote:
The "being filled" relates to our growth in grace.

In the WCF, Chapter 13. Of Sanctification, we read:

1. They, who are once effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart, and a new spirit created in them, are further sanctified, really and personally, through the virtue of Christ’s death and resurrection, (, , , ) by His Word and Spirit dwelling in them, (, , ) the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed, () and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified; (, ) and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces, (, ) to the practice of true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. (, )

2. This sanctification is throughout, in the whole man; () yet imperfect in this life, there abiding still some remnants of corruption in every part; (, , ) whence ariseth a continual and irreconcilable war, the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. (, )

3. In which war, although the remaining corruption, for a time, may much prevail; () yet, through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part doth overcome; (, , ) and so, the saints grow in grace, (, ) perfecting holiness in the fear of God. ()


Does the christian still have the old sinful nature residing after salvation, or is it the new nature alone now?

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PostPosted: 02-02-2017 2:30 pm
Post Number: 25892
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DrWhofan1 wrote:

Does the christian still have the old sinful nature residing after salvation, or is it the new nature alone now?

The term nature denotes the sum total of all the essential qualities of a thing, that which makes it what it is.

Adam, before his sin, possessed a mutable nature, a nature able to sin and able to not sin. When Adam sinned, his nature and all our natures as his progeny, became such that all possess only the inability to not sin, that is, the fallen man's nature is such that he is not able to not sin.

Regeneration, exclusively a Divine act, is an instantaneous change of a man's nature, affecting at once the whole man, intellectually, emotionally, and morally. Our regenerated natures are such that we are now able to sin or not to sin.

Nevertheless, the corruption of our regenerated natures (all of our human faculties) remains ever present. We are being perfected, but are not yet perfect. In our glory, our natures will be such that we will be not able to sin.
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PostPosted: 02-03-2017 6:59 am
Post Number: 25895
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Ask Mr. Religion wrote:
DrWhofan1 wrote:

Does the christian still have the old sinful nature residing after salvation, or is it the new nature alone now?

The term nature denotes the sum total of all the essential qualities of a thing, that which makes it what it is.

Adam, before his sin, possessed a mutable nature, a nature able to sin and able to not sin. When Adam sinned, his nature and all our natures as his progeny, became such that all possess only the inability to not sin, that is, the fallen man's nature is such that he is not able to not sin.

Regeneration, exclusively a Divine act, is an instantaneous change of a man's nature, affecting at once the whole man, intellectually, emotionally, and morally. Our regenerated natures are such that we are now able to sin or not to sin.

Nevertheless, the corruption of our regenerated natures (all of our human faculties) remains ever present. We are being perfected, but are not yet perfect. In our glory, our natures will be such that we will be not able to sin.

So that part of us that is still affected by the Fall and corrupted would be the Sin Priciple Paul talks about?

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PostPosted: 02-03-2017 8:46 am
Post Number: 25896
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DrWhofan1 wrote:

So that part of us that is still affected by the Fall and corrupted would be the Sin Priciple Paul talks about?


I prefer not to go the route that assumes there are two natures at war within the regenerated. As if there are two parts, one evil, one good, warring against one another. Such a view is one regularly leveraged to excuse bad acts, as in, "well it wasn't me that did that, it was my sin nature".

We are one Person, with one nature. Or nature denotes the sum total of all the essential qualities of us, that which makes us what we are. We are each a person with a nature. It is the Person that acts, while natures are. Again, persons act, natures are.

There is no part of us not affected by the sin of Adam. Likewise, when we are born anew there is no part of us not affected by the regenerative act of the Holy Spirit. Our renewed natures are such that we can now not sin as well as sin. Unfortunately, we struggle due to the lingering effects of the corruption of our natures in Adam, the indwelling of sin that no longer rules us but continues to vex us. We will to do what we ought to do, and do what have not willed to do.

Fortunately we know that which we often do is not what we should do and we continue to strive for Godliness, upheld by the Spirit that works within us.

The conflicts Paul describes, especially in Romans 7 are not some conflict between two natures residing within a believer, but rather these conflicts describe the effect of the law on a new heart () that recognizes its spirituality.
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PostPosted: 02-03-2017 12:24 pm
Post Number: 25899
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Ask Mr. Religion wrote:
DrWhofan1 wrote:

So that part of us that is still affected by the Fall and corrupted would be the Sin Priciple Paul talks about?


I prefer not to go the route that assumes there are two natures at war within the regenerated. As if there are two parts, one evil, one good, warring against one another. Such a view is one regularly leveraged to excuse bad acts, as in, "well it wasn't me that did that, it was my sin nature".

We are one Person, with one nature. Or nature denotes the sum total of all the essential qualities of us, that which makes us what we are. We are each a person with a nature. It is the Person that acts, while natures are. Again, persons act, natures are.

There is no part of us not affected by the sin of Adam. Likewise, when we are born anew there is no part of us not affected by the regenerative act of the Holy Spirit. Our renewed natures are such that we can now not sin as well as sin. Unfortunately, we struggle due to the lingering effects of the corruption of our natures in Adam, the indwelling of sin that no longer rules us but continues to vex us. We will to do what we ought to do, and do what have not willed to do.

Fortunately we know that which we often do is not what we should do and we continue to strive for Godliness, upheld by the Spirit that works within us.

The conflicts Paul describes, especially in Romans 7 are not some conflict between two natures residing within a believer, but rather these conflicts describe the effect of the law on a new heart () that recognizes its spirituality.


Would this be the mind resisting being controlled by the Spirit now?

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PostPosted: 02-03-2017 1:31 pm
Post Number: 25901
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DrWhofan1 wrote:
Would this be the mind resisting being controlled by the Spirit now?
Let me lay some groundwork before I answer this question.

The mind (or man) chooses and the will is the power by which this choice is accomplished. In other words, the will is that by which the mind chooses something.

The strongest motive is always the driving force behind the will and may be composed of various conjunctive elements.

Motive is the ground or the antecedent cause of the will— the will is not self-determined, but rather the will is determined, more properly speaking, the will is as the motive is.

"Freedom" is the power, opportunity or advantage that people have to do that which they please.

Thus, in answer to your question, it is the Person resisting: the mind, the will, the affections. We are not controlled by anything other than our own inclinations (motives). Our own motives are the antecedent causes which give rise to the our act of willing. We are not puppets manipulated by outside forces. We are self-determining creatures possessing the liberty of spontaneity (as opposed to the liberty of indifference). By liberty of indifference I mean choosing according to our greatest inclinations (motives) at the moment we so choose. The believer's inclinations (motives) arise from conjunctive elements such as, circumstances, upbringing, maturity, degree of sanctification, the means of grace we avail ourselves of, and so forth.
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PostPosted: 02-03-2017 2:50 pm
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Ask Mr. Religion wrote:
DrWhofan1 wrote:
Would this be the mind resisting being controlled by the Spirit now?
Let me lay some groundwork before I answer this question.

The mind (or man) chooses and the will is the power by which this choice is accomplished. In other words, the will is that by which the mind chooses something.

The strongest motive is always the driving force behind the will and may be composed of various conjunctive elements.

Motive is the ground or the antecedent cause of the will— the will is not self-determined, but rather the will is determined, more properly speaking, the will is as the motive is.

"Freedom" is the power, opportunity or advantage that people have to do that which they please.

Thus, in answer to your question, it is the Person resisting: the mind, the will, the affections. We are not controlled by anything other than our own inclinations (motives). Our own motives are the antecedent causes which give rise to the our act of willing. We are not puppets manipulated by outside forces. We are self-determining creatures possessing the liberty of spontaneity (as opposed to the liberty of indifference). By liberty of indifference I mean choosing according to our greatest inclinations (motives) at the moment we so choose. The believer's inclinations (motives) arise from conjunctive elements such as, circumstances, upbringing, maturity, degree of sanctification, the means of grace we avail ourselves of, and so forth.


Is this tied into then renewing our minds with Scripture. and presenting our bodies to God as Paul commanded us to do

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PostPosted: 02-03-2017 3:18 pm
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DrWhofan1 wrote:

Is this tied into then renewing our minds with Scripture. and presenting our bodies to God as Paul commanded us to do

Yes.

And 2 Cor. 10:5, as well as all the warning verses in Scripture, as they serve as a means by which God stirs up the faithful.
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PostPosted: 02-04-2017 2:38 pm
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Ask Mr. Religion wrote:
DrWhofan1 wrote:

Is this tied into then renewing our minds with Scripture. and presenting our bodies to God as Paul commanded us to do

Yes.

And 2 Cor. 10:5, as well as all the warning verses in Scripture, as they serve as a means by which God stirs up the faithful.


So you would see paul addressing individuals as being one to get renewed, continually refilled in/with the Spirit, and not used in a corporate assembly of the church  then?

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PostPosted: 02-04-2017 2:47 pm
Post Number: 25910
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DrWhofan1 wrote:
Ask Mr. Religion wrote:
DrWhofan1 wrote:

Is this tied into then renewing our minds with Scripture. and presenting our bodies to God as Paul commanded us to do

Yes.

And , as well as all the warning verses in Scripture, as they serve as a means by which God stirs up the faithful.


So you would see paul addressing individuals as being one to get renewed, continually refilled in/with the Spirit, and not used in a corporate assembly of the church  then?

Believing individuals are the audience. There is no refilling as if we are running low on the indwelling Spirit. Better to think of being filled to mean the disposition of setting aside your own thoughts to make room for God's thoughts.

When we speak about the means of grace, we are not talking about a container or method that holds or dispenses grace as if it were found in a cookie tin, or accessible through a wall-outlet.

In the Shorter Catechism answer 88 we read:
The outward and ordinary means whereby Christ communicateth to us the benefits of redemption, are his ordinances, especially the word, sacraments, and prayer; all which are made effectual to the elect for salvation.”

We partake of the ordinary means of grace of Word, Sacrament and Prayer, this grace increasing the strength of our walk of faith, which necessarily implies corporate assembly, where Word and Sacrament are present. We feed our faith to starve our doubts and despairs. Now we may call the Word, sacraments, and prayer “ordinary” means, but by that we don’t mean common or boring. God gave us these things for the purpose of being transmitters of His grace to us, if we by faith will appropriate and use them.

When we are looking and finding our source of spiritual nourishment in places other than Scripture, this habit bears strong correlation with avoidance of the convicting power of the law.

Or, perhaps the gospel no longer captivates our soul, so replacement is sought for it instead of returning to the wells of salvation. If the gospel was only of real importance some time ago (when we were saved?), then interest in it naturally fades. We need to remember our first love.

We must recognize that the weekly nourishment on the Word in sermons (besides daily investment), and sacrament when available, is the only way to grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior; and hence in new obedience.
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PostPosted: 02-07-2017 6:38 am
Post Number: 25916
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Ask Mr. Religion wrote:
DrWhofan1 wrote:
Ask Mr. Religion wrote:
DrWhofan1 wrote:

Is this tied into then renewing our minds with Scripture. and presenting our bodies to God as Paul commanded us to do

Yes.

And , as well as all the warning verses in Scripture, as they serve as a means by which God stirs up the faithful.


So you would see paul addressing individuals as being one to get renewed, continually refilled in/with the Spirit, and not used in a corporate assembly of the church  then?

Believing individuals are the audience. There is no refilling as if we are running low on the indwelling Spirit. Better to think of being filled to mean the disposition of setting aside your own thoughts to make room for God's thoughts.

When we speak about the means of grace, we are not talking about a container or method that holds or dispenses grace as if it were found in a cookie tin, or accessible through a wall-outlet.

In the Shorter Catechism answer 88 we read:
The outward and ordinary means whereby Christ communicateth to us the benefits of redemption, are his ordinances, especially the word, sacraments, and prayer; all which are made effectual to the elect for salvation.”

We partake of the ordinary means of grace of Word, Sacrament and Prayer, this grace increasing the strength of our walk of faith, which necessarily implies corporate assembly, where Word and Sacrament are present. We feed our faith to starve our doubts and despairs. Now we may call the Word, sacraments, and prayer “ordinary” means, but by that we don’t mean common or boring. God gave us these things for the purpose of being transmitters of His grace to us, if we by faith will appropriate and use them.

When we are looking and finding our source of spiritual nourishment in places other than Scripture, this habit bears strong correlation with avoidance of the convicting power of the law.

Or, perhaps the gospel no longer captivates our soul, so replacement is sought for it instead of returning to the wells of salvation. If the gospel was only of real importance some time ago (when we were saved?), then interest in it naturally fades. We need to remember our first love.

We must recognize that the weekly nourishment on the Word in sermons (besides daily investment), and sacrament when available, is the only way to grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior; and hence in new obedience.


What is the difference then between this view on Grace pf God available to us thru the means of bible, prayer, ordances, and the sacremental Grace as Church of rome sees this?

Would it be they see this as automatically applied, while we see it applied thru/by faith alone?

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